The world’s biggest popstar, Taylor Swift, joins Scott Mills on Radio 2’s Breakfast Show on Monday (October 6th) to chat about her new 12th studio album The Life of a Showgirl.
Taylor on what connects her and Travis: “I love the person that I am with because he loves what I do and he loves how much I am fulfilled by making art and making music. That's the coolest thing about Travis, like he is so passionate about what he does, that me being passionate about what I do, it connects us. There's no point in time where he's gonna be like, ‘I'm really upset that you're still making the music.”
Scott: You're not hiring a wedding planner, you're doing it all yourself?
Taylor on wedding plans: “I think that like I'm really right now just like really stoked about the idea that I get to marry this person. And so I'm like, I'm gonna think about that and then I'm gonna put out this album and then I'm gonna think about other things after that.”
Taylor on being miserable when making ‘The Tortured Poets Department’
Taylor: The cool thing about this record is that I'm in a very similar space in my life as to when I wrote it and now that I'm putting it out, which is nice…it's nice when those things are not incongruous. You know, like with the last record, I was in such a different place in my life when I wrote it.
Scott: Than when you put it out…
Taylor: Yeah, just miserable. And then when I put it out, I was so happy. So it was like, ah, I love this art. I love this beautiful art about misery. I, however, am not miserable anymore so it feels weird to talk about the record because it's like, you can be proud of the work, but you can also just not relate to that person you were. Anyway.
Taylor on her wedding plans and debunking fan myths about it being her last album release
Scott: Next one - which has the biggest production value The Eras Tour…do you think it's weird that we say Eras and not Eras…
Taylor: No you can call it whatever you want.
Scott: Which has the biggest production values - The Eras Tour or your forthcoming wedding?
Taylor: Oh my gosh, it's, you know what? I'm doing one thing at a time. Right now I'm doing this.
Scott: You're not hiring a wedding planner, you're doing it all yourself?
Taylor: I don't know, I think that like I'm really right now just like really stoked about the idea that I get to marry this person. And so I'm like, I'm gonna think about that and then I'm gonna put out this album and then I'm gonna think about other things after that. You know what I mean? Just to put you into a window into the psyche of where I'm at right now. Because that's a whole thing. But this is a whole thing, like talking to you about music that I'm really proud of. So I'm going to...
Scott: Taylor, don't tell me this is your last album.
Taylor: What? No.
Scott: I just saw some fans going, "Well, she's going to get married and then she's going to have children and then she's going to be the last album.”
Taylor: It's a shockingly offensive thing to say (Taylor laughs)
Scott: Absolutely. It is not the last album.
Taylor: It's not why people get married.
Scott: No, exactly!
Taylor: So that they can quit their job. It's also like music for me is…
Scott: I think the fans were just panicking.
Taylor on what connects her and Travis & the similarities of their careers performing in NFL stadiums
Taylor: Oh, I know they love to panic sometimes, but it's like I love the person that I am with because he loves what I do and he loves how much I am fulfilled by making art and making music. That's the coolest thing about Travis, like he's so, he is so passionate about what he does, that me being passionate about what I do, it connects us.
Scott: 100%.
Taylor: There's no point in time where he's gonna be like, ‘I'm really upset that you're still making the music.’
Scott: Can you imagine?
Taylor: The music thing that I signed up for that I knew you love, I thought you were gonna stop doing that.
Scott: I love how supportive you are of each other. It's so good.
Taylor: Yeah, and it just is the most fun thing in the world to be able to support each other and the sort of the polarity of how different our jobs are.
Scott: Massively.
Taylor: But there's a lot of similarities too.
Scott: In what way?
Taylor: We both, as a living, as a job, as a passion, perform for three and a half hours in NFL stadiums. We both do three and a half hour shows to entertain people for three and a half hours in NFL stadiums. When I'm in those stadiums, it's a dressing room, but when he's in those exact same stadiums, it's a locker room.
Scott: I never thought about that.
Taylor: For him, it's practice. For me, it's rehearsal. For him, it's a game. For me, it's a show. We just call them different things. It's a very similar thing. We both have teams.
Scott: It's very similar!
Taylor: And we're both competitive, like in fun ways, not in ways that eat away at us, but just like we just love it.
Scott: Thank you so much for my bread. I'm so pleased with it. Can you tell?!
Taylor: I'm so glad that you're excited.
Scott: Oh yeah, look at the cats!
Taylor: No, you're like hugging it, it's really nice.
Scott: Thank you, I'm already eating it.
Taylor: No, it was just, it was the look on your face when you did the interview that I was like, I'm gonna have to do some baking for you.
Scott: I really appreciate it, thank you so much.
Taylor: I'm really glad, I hope you like it. I hope you'll let us know if you like it. I'm still like, I love feedback.
Scott: I will give that to you. And congratulations on this incredible album, The Life of a Showgirl.
Taylor: Thank you so much, this was so fun talking to you.
Taylor Swift on keeping her new album a secret and her phenomenal close circle of friends who don’t snitch
Scott: So you were doing this while you were on the tour, so you'd do a three hour live show, then you'd pop to Sweden and record an album. And nobody blabbed. It stayed secret. How big is the circle of trust? How do you manage to keep that secret?
Taylor: My friends don't rat. They do not rat.
Scott: Clearly.
Taylor: And you can tell by the amount of stories about me that are out there that are absolutely not true, because all of my friends had heard the music a year ago. They know about my life. They know what's going on. They do not snitch. It is phenomenal. I've got a really good circle of friends. It takes a while to get there.
Scott: You have chosen your friends well.
Taylor: Well, thank you! I feel so proud about that. But yeah, my friends know everything just like anybody's friends know everything. And they, the thing is that they just don't.
Scott: So the label knew and your friends knew?
Taylor: The label didn't know at all. Until we had, until the record was done and we had made and we'd shot all of the art, we'd done everything, we do keep that close to the vest because, you know, I think it's fun to surprise them, honestly, it's really fun.
Scott: Yeah, I bet it is.
Taylor: We do a lot of things in-house, my team, so I think it's easier for them when the label can really just focus on what they have to do in terms of distribution, we have an amazing team that do that, so, yeah.
Scott: What's the most extreme thing you've had to do to keep something secret, are there disguises? There must be secret code names.
Taylor: Oh, we do all of it, everything. All of that. And if I tell you what it is, then it's like it's easier for people to figure it out. But I just, you know, I really want my music to be a surprise for my fans. And I really want to figure out how to do those surprises in ways that are clever and fun for them and feel like entertainment and also if you don't need Easter eggs then you can disregard that and that doesn't need to happen. You don't need to do math if you don't want to but if you want a little extra layer of entertainment like I like to be able to do that and that's why we're so shrouded in secrecy.
Scott: You love doing it and the fans love it trying to work it all out.
Taylor: Yeah they found out a really fun one the other day which is that if you line up all of the titles of the songs on the album, in the centre, it makes the shape of The Eras Tour stage.
Scott: I love it.
Taylor: And it's, I was so pleased when they found that out. I was like, yes.
Scott: So that was one.
Taylor: Yeah.
Scott: Oh my God, they're everywhere.
Taylor: They are everywhere. There are some weird ones that have absolutely no bearing in reality.
Taylor Swift on her ‘phenomenal’ Welsh fans and how she will never forget that gig in Cardiff
Scott: Lots of people in Cardiff, because it was a solo show, thought there were lots of little clues in - Yeah, because you wore the orange dress. Was that a clue?
Taylor: There were a lot of orange clues throughout. Yeah, for sure.
Scott: All the Welsh people are like, hmm, okay.
Taylor: They were an amazing crowd.
Scott: You said it was one for the books, you see. And anything you say will just be like taken and like they're trying to work out.
Taylor: My God. They were phenomenal. That was, I'll never forget what that crowd was like.
Scott: Why, why so?
Taylor: I don't know, they were just lit. They were absolutely…
Scott: on a Tuesday night.
Taylor: They were just exactly. I never expected that. I was just like, you guys are on another level, I gotta go back.
Scott: The constant writing notes is, well, we have that in common. I know that you use your notes app to write song lyrics and ideas all the time. Now, I do that for interview questions and ideas for the show.
Taylor: That's awesome.
Taylor Swift on why she would make a great spy
Scott: And since I found out that we were gonna have this chat, I've been writing down questions at all sorts of weird times. Because they're like, you're gonna interview Taylor Swift I was like, okay, and my brain has been constantly on it. So some of these may be odd because some of them will be in the middle of the night, but bear with. Question from my notes app. Gloria Estefan was once asked by the CIA to become a spy. Have you ever been asked because you'd be a great spy. Think about all the secrets you have to keep.
Taylor: Yeah, but that's classified, unfortunately.
Scott: Yeah, okay, you are good. Which part of being a spy would you be best at?
Taylor: Oh God, I think the entering and exiting buildings without being seen.
Scott: You are good at that.
Taylor: Just put me in a garbage can and roll me. I don't care…honestly no I can fit in like a purse.
Scott: So you're not precious about how you travel?
Taylor: No. Look here's the thing sometimes. I just can't deal with it. Yeah, and in those times I won't deal with it. So yeah, I'm just digging tunnels under every building I go into.
Sott: It's quite incredible.
Taylor: Thank you. Yeah. Airlifting in through the skylight.
Taylor Swift on warning friends and the Elizabeth Taylor estate about mentioning them in her music
Scott: Next note, do you need to warn people when you mention them in songs?
Taylor: If they're real people, yeah. Yeah, if they're real people. And like if it's like Elizabeth Taylor, we go to their family and her estate and let them know and they were lovely about it.
Scott: Did you have to put any calls in before this album?
Taylor: Yeah, there's, I mean, one of my best friends from high school, my best friend from high school, but one of my best friends in my whole world, Abigail, we met when we were 14 years old, and there's a line in the song ‘Ruin the Friendship’ that says Abigail called me with the bad news. And so I had to like, you know, tell her, 'cause she's been mentioned in songs before, there's a song called ‘Fifteen’ and she's mentioned in it, but I obviously want to tell her.
Scott: Yeah, because with an enormous fan base, comes great responsibility like did you have to tell the ‘Black Dog Pub’ that they might be getting a few calls?
Taylor: I mean…I did not and still nobody knows what I'm even talking about on that song. They think they know but they have no idea.
Scott: But you know but they don't know.
Taylor: Yeah and that's the one thing.
Taylor on making the new album & surprising her fans
Scott: Next note, when you're on stage, you can't experience what the fans see. However, at your cinema screenings, you could. Would you ever sneak in and watch, I don't know, watch the release party with them?
Taylor: It's a great idea. It's a great idea!
Scott: Master of disguise.
Taylor: I mean, you realise that they can see me in there too, though, right? Like they can see me in the concert.
Scott: Like I said, some of these are 3am.
Taylor: No, but it's good, you're workshopping it.
Scott: Yeah, I am with Taylor Swift! (Scott laughs)
Taylor: But yeah, we're doing a release party for fans that involves the release, the premiere of my music video, which I'm so excited about because I directed it and wrote it and it's very big and like glitzy and it's so fun. And it's supposed to be like the day in the life of a showgirl, right? Sometimes over different time periods and things like that. So they'll get to see the music video and also like behind the scenes of how we made the music video which to me is always fun and then explanations to them about what I wrote certain songs about.
Scott: You know with the videos I've seen this somewhere before, so no one hears the song? Do you still just use a click track?
Taylor: Yeah yeah we use a click track. It's so wild!
Scott: So you're the only person or one of the very few people that know the song everyone else is acting and singing and dancing to a song they don't know and it's just going click click click…?
Taylor: Everybody who was on The Eras Tour with me who had a part in what I was making got to hear it. So 'cause…I had situations where I wanted…you know there was a situation where I had a few dancers who I wanted to be playing backing vocalists. So they had to learn the harmony part. It was pretty fun.
Scott: It was so good.
Taylor: But it was mostly shrouded in secrecy.
Scott: You make whole videos and it's just click, click, click. And people don't know.
Taylor: No, no, but you can put little earbuds, little invisible earbuds in the people who need to hear it for the sake of the vocals.
Taylor on baking sourdough bread for Zoë Kravitz, Scott Mills & friends
Scott: Next one, how's the baking going?
Taylor: Oh, it's going great. I actually saw that you had Zoë on.
Scott: Zoë Kravitz?
Taylor: And that you were talking about the bread.
Scott: Yeah, and she'd just got delivery that day.
Taylor: Yeah, and you were like very sweet about the bread, the sourdough, so I've got this for you.
Scott: Awh you haven’t! Thank you so much!
Taylor: I've been baking.
Scott: Oh, it's big. Blueberry?
Taylor: It's blueberry lemon sourdough. I really hope you like it. 'Cause it was the sweetest look on your face when she told you about the bread.
Scott: I was just so impressed.
Taylor: Really?
Scott: Yeah, and she was like, "Having a bread, "doesn't matter, it's from Taylor Swift. "Having a bread delivery from anyone is pretty cool." I was like I agree.
Taylor: Well, Zoë’s extremely cool about everything.
Scott: She is. She's like, "Yeah, what?"
Taylor: But like, you were very, very, like, lovely about the idea of receiving bread. So here you go. This one is for you. The cat stickers were chosen specifically with you in mind.
Scott: I love it.
Taylor: I hope you'll like it.
Scott: Thank you so much. What's your current speciality apart from this? Do you bake and deliver to your friends?
Taylor: Yeah, yeah, it's just the baking and the cooking that really…
Scott: Is it always sourdough?
Taylor: Sourdough is like my favourite because it's, I'm gonna tell you something right now, like it's really hard for me to stop talking about bread once I start.
Scott: That's okay.
Taylor: But there's a lot of health benefits to sourdough, like my friends who are gluten-free can eat this bread because of the enzymes in it. Anyway, it breaks down the carbohydrates and the gluten. And I'm gonna stop now because I have to or else I won't stop talking about the bread. But I do love baking, I love cooking, I love just any kind of food related hobbies. And I didn't really have very many hobbies when I was on The Eras Tour because I could barely lift my arms or walk.
Taylor on what really matters in her life
Scott: So what did you do? ‘I went to Sweden.’
Taylor: I just wrote songs. You don't really need to be able to like, you know, like lift your arms or be able to walk, you know. There's so much exhaustive pain.
Scott: Yeah, I mean, it was impressive. I suppose for you, behind closed doors is where, you know, you can bake and you can relax and real life can happen, because once you open the door, it's quite chaotic.
Taylor: I mean, life is always chaotic, I think for everyone, no matter what, at any given time, but I do think that like one thing I love about having been alive longer than I had been before, you know, you hopefully learn to sort of filter out what matters really. You know, I'm a little bit more able to sort of sense what's a real like emergency and what's a real reason to be very upset. And it's just actually, the longer I'm alive, the smaller the list is of things that really matter. And the things that do matter, it's my family. It's my relationship. It's my friends. It's my art. It's baking. Genuinely, it's my cats. It's like the things that I'm so happy to have in my life that it's a very small amount and everything that is noise like you deal with it just like anything else. It's not like you're impenetrable and immune to stress but I do know that it's just stress and I've been through a lot of stress before just like everyone else and then you're gonna be fine as long as it's just stress.
Scott: Yeah that's true, it's a good way of looking at it.
Taylor: Thank you.
Taylor on whether she would go to space!
Scott: One more thing, I asked Mariah, she said she'd done enough. I asked Ed Sheeran, he said, "Absolutely not, I've got kids." Taylor Swift, would you go to space?
Taylor: Never, why would I do that. There's no reason to do that. I don't wanna do that ever. I never, oh my god, no. It's, I don't wanna - no. I don't, I can't, I don't, no.
Scott: This question gets a reaction every time.
Taylor: It's cold, it's scary. I don't know if I can come back down. If I go, no, I will believe I went. It doesn't matter if you go because everyone thinks you didn't go. Or they have a weird take on it. It is just, I have no, no fascination.
Scott: It's a no.
Taylor: Yeah, you know what, like, but thank you for asking because I don't know why I just completely freaked out by the question.
Scott: You really didn't. It was a no!
Taylor: I thought you were gonna make me go.
Scott: No, no, there's not like a spaceship…
Taylor: Like that was my reaction to it I was like I'm not going! I was like why are you making me go?! You’re like there's no spaceship here! (Taylor laughs)
Scott: You're the best thank you so much!
Taylor: You’re awesome, thank you!
Taylor on making The Life of a Showgirl during The Eras Tour
Scott: Oh, here we go. Taylor Swift, hello. How are you?
Taylor: I'm really good, I'm so happy to be just staring into your eyes.
Scott: And here we go.
Taylor: Here we go.
Scott: I want to say congratulations on The Life of a Showgirl.
Scott: I literally came out of a room, listening to it a few minutes ago. I'm pretty blown away.
Taylor: Thank you so much.
Scott: I really am.
Taylor: I really like it too. I'm so happy that you--
Scott: I don't think this is a ridiculous assumption. I think you're gonna break all the records.
Taylor: All of them?
Scott: I think you are. Since time began, I think all the music's gonna explode.
Taylor: All the music is going to explode is such a... I would love to have people feel really great about it and that wouldn't that be fun if like even just one record got broken. I don't know what they are really right now that we're talking about, but that sounds really fun.
Scott: I do know what they are, but we haven't got time. But I think you're gonna break a lot of them.
Taylor: Thank you!
Scott: Tell us why The Life of a Showgirl, it has glitz and glamour and sparkle. Was it inspired by The Eras Tour?
Taylor: I think so, I think the energy that I felt on that tour, it was so big and infectious, and I wrote most of this while I was on that tour. So it's like I would go from three shows in a stadium, fly to Sweden, fly back to the tour, fly to Sweden. And it sounds like sort of an impossible feat or a ridiculous challenge to take on, but at that point in the tour, I was so physically exhausted that I kind of needed to get back in that creative space and that fuelled me past physical exhaustion.
Scott: I was gonna say though, that show was not a short show.
Taylor: No, it was three and a half hours long.
Scott: A complex show.
Taylor: Really complex. But really, every time I would just collapse into bed at night after the show, I'd just be like, I take the longest, deepest sigh of just like, we managed to do it again.
Scott: It was so impressive to watch.
Taylor: It's a show you have to like survive. Every now and then I’m like ‘we survived it again’.
Scott: It blew me away.
Taylor: Thank you. Thank you for coming!
Scott: Honestly, I don't think I've seen a pop concert like it.
Taylor: Oh, thank you so much.
Scott: And then you'll be in Gelsenkirchen one minute and then you'll fly off and see Max in Stockholm…and do another song!
Taylor: Yes, actually, legitimately, that's what happened.
Scott: I love it.
Taylor: We ended up capturing lightning in a bottle when we got back in the studio. The three of us, Shellback, Max Martin, and I had not worked together since the Reputation album, which is seven, eight years ago now, and it was just so cool to get back to it because it felt a little bit like, Shellback and I are of similar age, and Max is a little older than us. So it was like when we were in our early 20s working with him, it felt a little bit like we were the protégés and he was the mentor. And this time around, it felt like all three of us, like it was a triangle of equal magnitude, you know?
